2 10 101 http://library.willamette.edu/archives/omeka/files/original/f3912139456f172b9be21512d7d98216.jpg 6e981fbbe1ec3ef5702827d28ffb6b0e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Betty LaDuke Exhibit Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Black and white printed photo digitally scanned and enlarged Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Heuser Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gunnar Gundersen OHMS Object Text 5.2 Interview with Gunnar Gunderson WUA_2015_19 WUA_2015_19 TIUA Willamette University Archives Gunnar Gunderson Linda Heuser 1:|14(4)|27(4)|35(12)|44(8)|53(14)|64(7)|72(13)|80(6)|90(13)|101(8)|110(11)|120(7)|129(13)|139(6)|147(11)|156(9)|164(9)|174(10)|184(8)|193(10)|201(7)|210(10)|221(1)|229(7)|238(1)|247(6)|257(4)|264(2)|272(14)|284(1)|294(6)|306(1)|314(12)|323(11)|333(6)|343(11)|352(5)|363(5)|372(6)|383(3)|390(14)|398(4)|421(1)|466(1)|484(1) 0 https://libmedia.willamette.edu:8443/p/101/sp/10100/serveFlavor/entryId/0_sticqtpw/v/2/flavorId/0_acz1raye/forceproxy/true/name/a.m4v Other video LH: Okay. Hello. I’m Linda Heuser. I’m professor emeritus in the department of Sociology at Willamette University, and to my right is -- GG: Hi, I’m Gunnar Gunderson. I’m the executive vice president of Tokyo International University of America, and I’m a professor of English as a Second Language. LH: And this is our second interview together. It is March 18, 2015. Two weeks ago, we had our first interview, and during that time Gunnar gave us some historical context for the development of the relationship between Willamette University and Tokyo International University, TIU, although at that time, it was called… GG: International College of Commerce and Economics. LH: Right. GG: Sometimes abbreviated ICC. LH: ICC. Okay. And then, also, Gunnar was able to talk a little bit about his own background and experiences that led him to being hired to develop the American Studies program, ASP as it’s known, at Willamette University, I guess slash Tokyo International University of America, TIUA? (GG: Mm hmm) Was it? (GG: Mm hmm) At the time? (GG: It was. Mm hmm.) Okay. So today, if this works for you Gunnar, I thought we would start with you talking about the development of the program in the early years. And then, what we could do is also talk about the parts that Willamette University and TIU played in the development of this program. And then, if we have time today, maybe talk about some of your biggest challenges to begin with and what you thought were early successes. GG: Okay, sounds good. Yes, so the first program year was 1989. And, I found out about the program and the position that I was hired for, I believe it was in February, late February, and I was asked to come here by the middle of March. I remember the day, it was March 13, was when I arrived in the United States. I was in Saudi Arabia, working at a university there. I arrived initially on a weekend, I believe it was, and had to go up to Seattle for a couple days -- and I’ll explain more about that later ; it’s part of the story -- and then the following week was my first week on campus. And, to put this in context, at that point, I learned that the first group of students would be arriving on May 3rd. (LH chuckles) So we had about six weeks, including spring break when nobody’s around, to get ready for the first group of sixty-one students. The reason I had gone to Seattle, and it’s part of the story, is that when initially, deciding to go forward with this plan of developing this program with TIU, Willamette University, recognizing that it didn’t have any expertise on campus in terms teaching English as a second language. Some professors had been involved in some of the prior programs that we talked about, and so forth, but were not TESOL specialists. And so what Willamette did was it sent out a request for proposals and ended up accepting a proposal from an organization called ELS Language Centers. And, so when I was hired, I was initially hired technically by ELS Language Centers as the director of the program. So, when I first arrived, I had to go to Seattle for a couple days to get a kind of briefing and some orientation from the director of the ELS Language Center up in Seattle, who had been involved with Willamette in some of the planning and so forth. And, then I came down to Willamette. I think it was either Monday or Tuesday that first week, I had my first meeting with a committee of people, who were working on this project, maybe my memory fails me, but it seems there must have been a hundred people in the room. (LH laughs) Though there were probably a dozen, fifteen, mostly faculty members and a few administrators on this committee. Some of them are still on campus, Ron Loftus was one of the members. And, it was an interesting beginning for me because I was hoping that this committee, who had been working on this for, at least during that academic year anyway, eighty-eight-eighty-nine, would fill me in on a lot of details about what they, how they envisioned the program being and what they thought were necessary components of the program and the curriculum, and so on and so forth. But, when I sat down at the committee conference table, somebody in the room, I don’t know if it was the chair or who it was, turned to me and said “So Gunnar, what are we going to do?” And that was my beginning. And, my response was, I thought you were going to tell me. (GG chuckles) And we went from there. So, there was a lot of, kind of, analy- needs analysis to do. And a lot of ground work in terms of figuring out who the students were, what kind of needs they had, in terms of English language learning, but also in terms of other parts of the academic curriculum. And then, also, a whole ‘nother set of issues related to how to integrate a group of TIU students onto the Willamette campus. Initially, it was my under- I learned during that introductory phase, that Willamette had got into the idea of the program with some basic concepts in mind about the academic program. One of the concepts was that the students who were going to be selected to enter the program would be entering with a TOEFL score. TOEFL is the test of English as a foreign language that’s used by universities for admissions purposes. They were looking for a TOEFL of 450 and above. At that time, at the university, I think the TOEFL for admission was probably somewhere between 450 and 500. So they were kind of thinking, well these are going to be students who are kind of at the level of our typical international students. In fact, at that time, I’m not even sure if, I think Willamette was using a TOEFL score at that point, but, it wasn’t that long before that they, I think there were many students without even a TOEFL score. Anyway, 450 on the TOEFL, at that time, was considered to be sort of upper-intermediate, low-advanced level of English proficiency. I’d say low-advanced at that time. Since those days, that expectation has changed, and now a similar score for admission to Willamette would be 560 for admission. So, that gives a little context to what was in the mind of the Willamette academic folks. And they also, they understood that it needed to be more than English language instruction. Because the students were spending their academic year here, they needed to earn credit in subject matter courses that they could transfer to TIU, so that they’d still be able to graduate in four years. Because that was one of the main concepts, spend a year at Willamette, but you could still graduate in four years. So, initially, the thought from the Willamette side, and this is pretty much how it played out the first year, was that the subject matter courses, in addition to English language courses, would be in mathematics, basically a statistics course, in the summertime. Students would take it in the summer with the idea being they could get a head start on taking a subject matter class before the fall. And that a class in math or statistics would be relatively easier for them, even if their English language is relatively limited at that point. That was the theory. And then the idea was that in fall, the students would continue to take some English, but the primary bulk of the courses they would take would be in this category of American studies. And, the idea was that there would be four core courses that all students would take -- American Society, American Politics, American History, and American Literature. So, as you can see, it was kind of a, from the Willamette liberal arts point of view, the idea was, okay we’re going to do a mini liberal arts program, centered around these American studies focus topics. And the idea was that, in the fall semester, for one half of the semester -- Well, let me back up. The courses would be divided into two sets. So you have, for example, American Society and American Politics was one set, and American Literature and American History was another set. So, for half of the semester, let’s say the first half of the semester, half of the students would take courses from one set and half the students would take courses from the other set. Then you got to the middle of the semester, and everybody switched. So by the end of the semester, everybody had taken all four courses. At the time -- and this, we’ll get into this more later -- at the time, there was no thought that the students coming out of their English language study in the summer time would need much further English language instruction -- that they’d be ready to go into these classes taught by Willamette professors in these various areas. And the first year, also, it was particularly challenging because they did arrive in May. And the only reason for that was the building hadn’t been finished. In fact, it wasn’t finished when they arrived, and we had some classes on the other side of campus and our offices were on the other side of campus. So anyway, we were kind of starting the program while the building was still being finished. So, the idea was, put them through an intensive English program between May and August, and then they’ll be ready in the fall semester to take these subject courses. Okay. So then, I started to get to know a little bit more about TIU and about the students and I, in the course of doing that, I met a fellow by the name of Yukihiko Kawashima, Professor Kawashima. He was introduced to me as the Dean of TIUA. So he was a TIU professor who had been assigned to come over here and live in residence, with his wife and two children. It so happens that his oldest daughter was one of the students in the first group, no coincidence there. He was given a four-year assignment, to be here for four years. So I started getting to know Professor Kawashima, and he’s a, he played a big role in the early years of the program. I also got to know a young English language professor from TIU, whose name was Professor Hino, H-I-N-O. And professor, I can’t remember, I can’t remember his first name. I think it was Nobu, Nobu Yashima, not sure. Anyway, Professor Hino was sent on kind of a, to me it felt like a sort of a rescue mission of some kind, because it became known that the sixty-one students who were going to join the program, none of them met the English proficiency criteria that Willamette had assumed was going to be used. And the average TOEFL score for the group was about 390, which was substantially below that expected proficiency level. The reason that Willamette set that bar, and they did it in a consultation with ELS is my understanding, was because they understood that, you know, these students were going to have to study academic subjects, in a second language, and they knew that would be challenging. I think TIU recognized that and understood it, but the fact was that the majority of TIU students did not have that level of academic English, as hopeful as a test of academic English. It’s not just general English. So, Professor Hino came over in order to give me more background about the students, about the curriculum at TIU, and to kind of brainstorm with me about how to structure the program. So, he came over, it was like just two days, and went back to TIU. But I remember how anxious he was, because he knew the students, and he knew the challenges that they would face. And so, given all of that -- and during this time, I’m also having to recruit faculty, so that’s another part of the story I guess. I came to see that it was going to be necessary to do some, some curriculum design that would lend itself to students learning content through English, and find a way for the content faculty members and the language faculty members to work together. And just to fast-forward a little bit, that eventually evolved into a full-blown model where, when we have a subject matter class in the program, either in the summer or the fall, it has an attached applied English course that goes with it. And so, the student actually has two professors. One professor is the content specialist, and the other professor is the English language specialist. And they work together, students get credit for both courses, and these linked courses that they take. And everybody involved buys into the idea that the students are learning the content and developing their English language proficiency simultaneously, and that these two things feed off of each other and have to be done as a team. But in those days, since the model that they were assuming they were going to use was put them through an intensive English program, then throw them into subject matter classes, then we’re done and they go home. And, I knew that it was a time bomb. And that it would result in not only the students but the faculty members, the Willamette faculty members involved, having a very difficult time, in the fall semester in particular. And so, what I proposed was, yes we’ll have this intensive English for academic purposes program front-loaded, so students had courses in listening and speaking and reading and writing that are very similar to the kinds of courses you’d find at any university, language institute. But then I also proposed that we have, use applied English courses to go along with the content courses. But here was the main problem. The main problem was, there was no money to do that because it requires time and expertise. You have to pay somebody to do their work, and there was no money in anybody’s budget to do that. As far as ELS is concerned, they were getting paid to provide ESL courses. As far as Willamette was concerned, its commitment was to provide four professors to teach these contact courses. And as far as TIU is concerned, they just sort of felt like, well, were left in mercy of Willamette to do whatever they’re, they decide to do, and we’ll all cross our fingers and hope it works out. But, I have had a lot of experience doing that kind of work before, teaching languages through content. I had done it at Lewis and Clark and University of Houston and the university I was in at Saudi Arabia. So I knew that it was quite doable. So what I had to do was start basically a lobbying effort with Willamette administration and with ELS Language Centers and with TIU, primarily through Kawashima Sensei, Professor Kawashima. And, they had a staff member here too as well that, that I worked with. I had to convince everybody that, unless they wanted the program to fail, that we needed to restructure the way the courses were going to be taught in the fall. And, they listened, and I was able to get a minor commitment of some resources from the different institutions involved that first year. But it was really, very, very limited because, you know, they were going to buy into it ‘cause nobody had budgeted for this. And the ELS Language Center folks didn’t feel any commitment to provide very much additional funding because that was going to cut into their earnings that they had. And so basically the first year, that fall semester, myself and one other -- there was only one other full-time person in addition to myself -- basically volunteered to create these applied English courses, which required that we attend all the courses that the students were taking, and then have our own classes with the students to help them work through the language and the academic content. But we did it because we were committed to the program, and we thought that by demonstrating to everybody involved how this could work, that it might convince them to provide some additional resources so that we could do it properly. One of the things that we had to do, just because of, there was only so much time in the day, was we actually had to teach two applied English courses at the same time. So, by that I meant, we’d have all the students that were taking one set of electives in one applied English course. And all of the students who were taking the other set in another applied English course. It was sort of like being, you know, like in a public school situation where you, you have to teach several different subjects with the same group of students. So that was the model in those early years. But, little by little, I think Willamette was strongly committed to the program, and they came to realize that this was going to require more resources. So they started helping in terms of the negotiation with the ELS Language Center folks. And, the TIU and TIUA also started to realize that they were going to have to provide some additional resources. And this became even more evident when we got into the, about the middle of the fall, or maybe winter, which was the end of the program that year. That year, the program ended around the fifteenth of January. And the reason for that is the TIU academic year, they were following the TIU academic year, basically, that ends in the latter part of January. I guess everybody thought, well this worked pretty well after all, and you know it, maybe even better than some had thought would be possible. So, TIU started asking for an expansion of the curriculum. And, very quickly, they started asking for a series of economics courses, politics courses, computer science courses. And as we learned more and talked more, we found out that what, from the TIU perspective, what they really thought was necessary was to have a number of elective courses in the curriculum that mirrored the TIU curriculum. So that when the students are earning their credit in these courses, they could transfer them directly back to similar courses. So, they take information science here, they can transfer it to information science there. They take macroeconomics here, they can transfer it to macroeconomics there. Well that created quite another set of challenges, because Willamette had not been prepared to deliver that broad of curriculum. And also, this coincides with the just in the academic year. So, in the second year, the students arrived during spring break, so basically the middle of March, third week of March. Just a quick story there. That was a mistake because the students from Japan arrived on campus when virtually nobody was here. So, that was lesson learned by all involved. And the next year, they came, I believe in early March. And then finally, I think in the third, it was in the third year, we got everybody to agree to adjust the calendar so that the students could arrive in early February. And, one of the strong arguments for that was, not only the adaptation issue--you know, being able to get here as close to the beginning of spring semester as possible--but also, in order to give the students more opportunity to improve their English language and academic skills during the spring semester. Because, by that time everybody was much more aware of the great challenges the students were having learning these subject matter courses in English. So, starting in the second year and then developing more into the third and fourth year, the curriculum became very diverse. We were offering probably, I want to say about ten different courses in the summer, and maybe seventeen or eighteen different courses in the fall semester. And from a wide range of, you know, represented a wide range of departments on campus. Over the course of doing that, we were able to get additional funds from everybody so that we were going to be able to have an authentic applied English class attached to each course. It took probably three years to finally get that fully implemented. I think that was the key to the program surviving those first few years. I think if we had not had that kind of approach to the curriculum, it would have been a pedagogical failure for everybody involved, and it would have probably caused everybody to really, you know, rethink whether they wanted to continue, at least Willamette side. I’m not sure that our TIU colleagues fully understood how challenging it was. Over the years--it took me many years, and still to this day it happens to me--that TIU colleagues think, they sort of consider that all the courses that the students take while they’re here are English courses because they’re taught in English. And so, for them, the distinction between a student learning and studying English as a second language and the students studying, say macroeconomics in English, is not that big of a distinction for them. But for our Willamette colleagues, you know, they admittedly were not ESL professionals. Some of them had had some experience working overseas or working with international students. But for the most part they said, you know, we’re not ESL people so we can’t do this without this additional support. So that’s how we got the basic framework of how we teach content courses underway. LH: Now can I ask you, in those early years, if we focus on the Willamette faculty who you said weren’t ESL specialists -- I too began teaching in 1991. I had no idea what this meant. How were the Willamette faculty chosen early on, and what sort of training were they provided? GG: In some cases, there was sort of a--I don’t know if it was actually written down anywhere, I suppose it was--that there was an agreement that certain departments on campus would provide at least one course in the fall semester. In the summer semester, because Willamette doesn’t have a summer session, it was basically an issue of recruiting faculty from amongst the Willamette pool who were interested in doing the summer session. And, you know, we had certain courses that we were looking for, and luckily we found enough people who were interested in doing it. In the fall semester, because Willamette is in session in the fall, it was a little bit more challenging for people to be available. But these four departments, the ones that I mentioned before, had this commitment to provide faculty. And then working with the dean, or deans, over the years, other departments also provided faculty. Sometimes, many times in those years, they were regular tenure track and tenure faculty. There were also a number of adjunct faculty involved, and we would, at least once a year, we’d have a, a kind of a workshop there where we all get together and share ideas about effective teaching techniques for students of English as a Second Language. We did some intercultural communication training. For the first couple years, the committee on campus sponsored an intercultural communication workshop. I think you participated in one or two of those. LH: I did. I did. GG: And they would bring in some well-known interculturalists and lead the workshop, and then we’d have breakout sessions, and -- It was very useful for people to kind of get a sense of what the intercultural challenges were for the students and the teachers. And then, the other aspect of this arrangement is, frankly, kind of learning as you go, with the content specialists linked up with an applied English specialist. Each one can look at what they’re doing from their perspective and collaborate, and that collaboration becomes a key element. The development of the faculty person and their skillset, their understanding of what works and what might not work, or if something doesn’t work, why? So I think just having that built-in structure that causes people to have that ongoing collaboration throughout the semester is a key element in the development of the faculty members’ abilities. That’s why we’ve been, I mean we’ve been very fortunate in this program, I think, to have at least a core group of faculty that have taught in the program or would teach in the program for a fairly long time. I think you’re the record holder. (GG and LH laugh) But there were a couple other faculty that taught, you know, from the very early years until they retired. And that was, that was a big advantage because the skills that they learned over all those years really made the program the high quality program that it is. We’re having more challenges these days keeping people engaged in the program for that long (train horn sounds) of a time. And we’re having more and more difficulty recruiting people to teach in the fall semester, and that has to do with a lot of things related to the stretching of resources at Willamette in general in the fall semester. Lots of different commitments that faculty and departments have. So, increasingly we’ve had to hire more and more adjunct faculty in the fall semester, and some of them, you know, come back year after year. But, in those early years, again, I think very fortunate to have ongoing commitment by a core group of people was a key factor. LH: Now, you talked about like the first year, it was only you and one other person. After that first year, were you able to grow the applied English specialist faculty? GG: Yes. We had hired, even in the first year we hired some other faculty members to teach the English language courses in that May to August period or March to August period. So, we had some faculty who had taught in our program for that limited term. So I basically recruited from that pool for the fall semester, for people to work with the applied English courses. For the first--I would say four years? Eight-nine. Yes, eighty-nine through ninety-two--all of the faculty, with the exception of myself, and I was teaching half-time and administering the program half-time, and there was one other full-time professor. We had to, we were still limited in the sense that we were only able to offer people kind of term by term teaching conditions until 1993. And in 1993, between ninety-two and ninety-three, a couple things happened. One of the things that happened over those first four years or so was--about, I’d say probably in the middle of the second year or certainly into the third year--Willamette University and TIU, and those of us who were working the program, came to realize, you know, frankly that ELS Language Centers, that still had the contract with Willamette, really wasn’t contributing anything to the program. So they were getting paid by Willamette to administer the program and provide certain elements of teaching, English languages instruction in particular, but they really weren’t providing anything other than what we were doing here locally. And so, we then started a process of discussion, of all the parties involved, that eventually led to the conclusion that Willamette would sever its arrangement with ELS Language Center. And in the course of that, then Willamette and TIU had to decide how are we going to continue to administer the program. Because, at that time, those of us who were doing the instructional part and I was coordinating the academic program, technically we worked for ELS. So, in theory, they severe the relationship with ELS, we go away. But none of us had ever worked for ELS before. We weren’t like ELS career people, that kind of thing. So the conclusion was, we’re going to sever our ties with ELS Language Center, then what? So then a discussion back and forth, for probably six months or so. And at the conclusion of that discussion, then President Jerry Hudson decided that he didn’t want Willamette to hire those of us that were working in the program. I assume, I understand that the reason he didn’t want to was basically he just didn’t want to take on additional staff people, that commitment to additional staff people. That may have been influenced by the thoughts at the time that, you know, people didn’t know if the program was going to continue. It was still kind of tenuous. People were, I mean, every year, there was somebody was saying, you know, oh I don’t know if this is, you know, we can continue doing this or not. So that may have influenced his thinking. So, the decision was that TIUA, as an educational institution--just parenthesis, TIUA is incorporated in the state of Oregon as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit educational institution, which is the same designation that other colleges like Willamette, has. So it basically just means, you’re operating as a non-profit organization, and then you’re recognized as an educational institution. So, because of that, legally and organizationally, TIUA had the capability of hiring its own faculty and staff. And so, the decision was made that TIUA would employ the faculty and staff that were delivering the academic program. We actually did a search that year to fill three full-time teaching positions, and we hired three people from -- One was Wayne Gregory, he was currently, he was at Louisiana at the time ; Mary Jane Denon, who I believe was in New York City at the time working at a university ; and Steve Link, who was actually in Japan at the time. And then we continued to employ also, on a term by term basis, other faculty members who had been working in the program from early years. In particular, Judy Varga and Laurie Austin and then Serena Tabbot. So we were still augmenting the full-time faculty with adjunct faculty or temporary, limited term faculty. That was kind of a watershed moment in terms of solidifying and building the academic program. Because, it gave us a core of people who could work on the academic program on a year-round basis full-time, full-time for real. So, that was very, very good. In a way, it presented some new challenges, because we then had two organizations with two different sets of faculty, whereas before, while Willamette had had a subcontract with ELS, you know, basically we were working for Willamette. We were subcontracted to Willamette. I need to keep track of the time. AD: It’s two-o-two. GG: Two-o-two, okay. So, you know, one of the things we did in order to make sure that that would go well, and that everybody could continue to work together successfully was, we made sure that our faculty had graduate degrees in TESOL, had extensive background, particularly in the area of -- AD: Ooo, we have a problem. LH: *whispers* Oh, what now? GG: Buzzing? P1: Yes, the mics can’t hear anything from them anymore. LH: Oh no. AD: It’s just buzzing. GG: How about now? LH: Hello? AD: No. LH: Yes? AD: Still all buzzing. LH: Oh no. AD: I’m not sure why. {Long Pause} LH: Test. GG: You know what it could be? LH: What? GG: That machinery, maybe? Because this is wireless, I wonder if it, the machinery is interrupting the signal. AD: The, which machinery? Outside? GG: The lawnmower or whatever it is that’s going out there. AD: It could be, or if he’s listening to something. GG: Yes. LH: Oh. AD: ‘Cause, it was working. GG: So you just noticed? AD: Yes. Like it could have been like a good ten minutes worth, ‘cause -- LH: Okay. GG: It’s okay. LH: Okay. I wonder if we try to put ours off and then on again. Do you hear anything? AD: No. It’s still -- maybe if I try (GG: Still buzzing?) turning this one off. *clicking* LH: Hmm. [Pause] AD: I’m not sure. It could be the headphones, but I don’t know because it was working fine earlier. GG: Yes, I can hear it. LH: There, we could tell you--yes, I can too. AD: Yes. But, I mean, we could try stopping this recording and then maybe try again? Or… LH: Yes, we could. GG: Well, we need to continue anyways so… LH: Yes, we could, yes we could just actually just stop it and then yes. We, Gunnar and I would schedule another time and -- GG: I was just going to get into all the juicy gossip. LH: Yes. I had all sorts of things (GG laughs) to ask you. Yes, I guess we’ll just, we’ll stop it here. GG: Okay AD: Yes, sorry. LH: No, it’s not your fault! GG: No, its not even close to -- LH: Yes! It’s good thing -- GG: If you hadn’t been here, we wouldn’t have known, because last time we were just here all by ourselves. So… LH: But I do have my backup. [End of Interview] video 0 OHMS Object https://library.willamette.edu/archives/oralhistories/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WUA_2015_19.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gunnar Gundersen Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WUA_2015_19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 18, 2015 http://library.willamette.edu/archives/omeka/files/original/062a7af621c5c1134e3739544009ba1d.jpg f29ade3905feee01062bac6ab10c2140 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Roger Hull Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jim Shull OHMS Object Text 4 2013-11-13 Jim Shull Oral History WUSC-2013-58 Willamette University Archives Jim Shull Roger Hull 1:|14(4)|36(4)|44(4)|52(10)|61(3)|77(12)|103(13)|119(7) https://libmedia.willamette.edu:8443/p/101/sp/10100/serveFlavor/entryId/0_ekjm3kpi/v/2/flavorId/0_u4zrr7xq/forceproxy/true/name/a.mp3 Other audio Talking about materials in the Jack Eyerly collection. JS: We're on. RH: We're on. RH: The artist, uh, Jim Shull and I are sitting in a recording room, uh, in Hatfield Library at Willamette University in Salem. Uh (clears throat) um, on November uh 13, 2013. We are going to be, uh, recording a conversation about uh, Jim's memories and recollections of um, the Oregon art and culture scene in the uh, second half of the 20th century and on into the 21st century, uh, and we're doing this for the Pacific Northwest Artist's archive here at Willamette. The Pacific Northwest Artist's is one component of the um, archives and special collections here at the school. (clicks tongue) My name is Roger Hull, not to be confused with Shull. (JS chuckle) We have Shull and Hull here. I am a professor of Art History Emeritus at Willamette and uh, Senior Faculty Curator at the Hallie Ford Museum of Art. And um, this um, archive of artists that I was mentioning is a joint project, collaborative project between Hatfield library and the Hallie Ford museum of art. (clicks tongue) So um, (clicks tongue) Hello um, Jim. JS: Good Afternoon (clears throat) RH: Good Afternoon (clears throat) Um, I've always heard you refer to as Jim Shull. (JS: mmmm hmmm) but I take it your formal name is James, is that right? JS: Uh, yeah, mhm, (clears throat) but not much used. RH: And what is your middle name? JS: Edward (clears throat) RH: James Edward Shull or Jim Shull. I did a little background, uh, reading about you online, and learned that you were born in Arcata, California and that as a um, (clicks tongue) young boy you and your family came to Salem. So, why don't we begin at the beginning and-- JS: Well, that's sort of starting at the beginning alright. At age 13, in 1948, uh (throat clear) came to Salem. Salem was the original destination of my folks when they got married. It took 'em 12 years to get here, and (throat clear) finally arrived and um, uh, technically I, I'm a Californian but, (throat clear) we can forget about that fundamentally I really am an Oregonian. So, (clears throat) (long pause) as far as my uh, artistic endeavors and what not are concerned, my mother was making a valiant try at uh, turning my brother and me into world class tap dancers which was a hopeless endeavor (RH laughs) and, and she uh, basically uh, threw in the towel, uh, and allowed my brother and I allowed to go in different directions and which was definitely not tap dancing. I uh, had a strong interest in drawing and painting at that time and I wanted to take some class and uhh, and in what was going on in school I was in the 7th grade at Parrish Jr. High. Uh, Robert Voit was the art teacher (minor throat clear) and Bob and I got to know each other rather well over the next 20 years or so. And um, (throat clear) he was uh, he encouraged me in uh, (pause) at any rate uh, at that time Carl Hall who had yet to become associated uh, or at least strongly associated with Willamette University um, (breath intake) was teaching night school uh, (throat clear) and I think it was the YWCA that was sponsoring an evening of painting class taught by Carl Hall. (throat clear) And I signed for it. Uh, and uh, in the fall of 1949, and uh, (minor throat clear) that was my first contact with Carl Hall and for that matter any other doggone artist apart from Bob Boyd. And (throat clear) (pause) then uh by the time I got to high school uh, wh I I showed up as an entering, well I guess it would be a sophomore, in 1951.(pause) uh I met uh, for one thing, Diane Stirrs, who was the art teacher at that time and she was a recent graduate of Willamette University and herself had studied with uh Carl Hall, and uh, (throat clear) and so that kinda reinforced thee the link I already had with Carl (RH: mmm hmmm) and by then Carl was uh, some, in some position with Willamette University as an art instructor. (RH: mmm hmmm) And uh, deet, all the details I never really much understood back in those days, but' RH: Yeah, he started as an artist in residence at Willamette. JS: Yeah, that sounds right. RH: And later became a regular faculty (JS: Yeah) member. So what was the name again of the woman who (JS: uh Diane) had given JS: Actually, her uh, it it was either her name being Diane Stirrs and she later married became Diane Proctor or maybe it was the other way around, one or the other, but uh, I remember that uh, we had her as an art teacher for two years in high school then she left (RH: mm hm) and uh, Darl Hermund came in to take over and uh that's where I and others (throat clear) which of course includes Jack Eyerly, uh, finished up. We, we all graduated in uh, 1954. RH: So, we are talking about South Salem High as JS: No this was North. RH: This was North. JS: It was simply known as Salem High School. RH: Yup, right. JS: Uh, the very first year of uh, the first school year of South Salem High started in the fall of 1954 (RH: mm hmmm) and uh, (throat clear) and so I was in the, the last graduating class of Salem High. (RH: uh huh interesting) and, (throat clear) RH: So spell Stirrs, (JS: pardon) I can't quite get the name Stirrs. How do you spell that? Diane Stirrs? JS: Oh, Diane Sterns. RH: Sterns? (JS: Yeah) Okay. Sterns. JS: As I recall its just simply S-T-E-R-N-S. uh (RH: Okay) I think and uh but, you know that can be checked on the record someway. RH: Yeah. JS: So (throat clear) RH: So tell me about uh, the class with Carl Hall at the Y. uh. JS: Well it was an evening class(RH: mm hmm) and uh, there's kind of a motley assortment of students, uh, and, uh, and Carl was uh, hmmm, very approachable as I recall, and uh, he and I kind of, uh, formed a bit of a friendship right off the bat and, um, (throat clear) and he was very encouraging to me, and, uh, I was starting to see for myself for the first time what it was that Carl uh, was doing back in those days and, uh, and then I became rather aware that he was painting some fairly significant pictures for the Salem Oregon part of the world uh, some very nice uh, landscapes and uh, it was simply the best stuff being done in town, uh, or for that matter practically in the state of Oregon back then. And uh, (throat clear) so (pause) so he uh, obviously became a fairly strong influence upon me uh, my approach to uh, drawing and painting in general uh, did depend uh, a lot upon what uh, Carl had, was just simply teaching. And uh, (throat clear) and he had a well it was kind of a curious thing, uh, when I got in high school one of the very first people I met and became uh, rather good friends with was Jack Eyerly, and, uh, Jack was already aware that this fellow Carl Hall was about, but he was also aware of another artist in town that I had not heard of up to that point, uh, Clifford Gleason (RH: mm hmm). And Clifford Gleason was uh, (throat clear), quite a contrast to Carl (RH: Yes) in, in, in just about every way. And uh, (throat clear) um, Carl had some pretty um, well difficult uh and vivid experiences in the war. (RH: Yes) He was in the army uh, and was sent to the south pacific and got shot at quite a bit and saw a certain amount of action and drew lots of maps for the army and (throat clear) and even got a little bit of drawing and painting in. And um, but, um, Clifford Gleason uh, didn't go into the military, which if you knew Clifford Gleason it would come obvious as to why he didn't and, (throat clear) he was, uh, kind of uh, you might say relaxed in certain kinda of ways and, uh, not, not realy working too hard at being an artist or, or, so it appeared to me at the time. He, I remember the first time I saw anything that was his work, uh, it was in, he had a downtown studio someplace uh, in Salem, and um, (throat clear) there he was ensconced in this studio, lots and lots of space and a few little things kind of strung about that he had done and, and, quite frankly, at the time, I, I was not in the least bit impressed with, uh, anything that Clifford had done. And, uh, (throat clear) but, you know, Jack seemed to uh, thing that he was a very interesting fellow, which uh, is true, he was an interesting fellow. (JS and RH laugh) But, (throat clear) anyways, um, my, er, memories of high school primarily uh, are around the friendships that I formed with Jack Eyerly and there were some others. Uh, Jack Schrader would be another bloke that, um, and then there was Dick Richardson who as, uh, a sort of uh, cartoonist that had tremendous, uh, talent, uh and he, he, Dick and I were in the same home room together and uh, he, he had a whole raft of cartoons that he had worked up about our home room teach who was uh, in in Dick's view, kind of a bubbling old idiot and he may have been a bubbling old idiot. He certainly came out that way and as far as the cartoons were concerned, and, (throat clear) so we uh, you know, we formed our friendships and Jack uh, somewhere along the line got the bright idea that us artist types uh, needed to uh, have a show of our own work. And uh, this occurred dur largely during our junior year and we had gotten to know each other pretty well by then and uh, and there were several others besides Jack and me and Schrader and Richardson, there uh, uh, (RH: Is Bob Crist part of it?) Mmmmm, no. Bob Crist was actually uh, younger uh, than the rest of us. He didn't graduate from high school until about 1957 or 58 (RH: Oh) or something like that(RH: Oh, mm hmm) So none of us got to know Bob until after we were out of high school and off to college or something, and, uh, (throat clear) so (pause) anyway that was the beginning of how it became to be known as the Tacroom Gallery. And this was a primarily a Jack Eyerly uh, creation. Uh, he's pretty much the one who uh, thought we oughta be doing this, he worked up the enthusiasm, he got Diane Sterns Proctor to uh, get behind the project as a worthy kind of a extra curricular sort of thing and (breath intake) and uh, (throat clear) and attack room of course is simply uh, a space where the gear to keep a horse is kept the saddles, and the hay, and I don't know whatever you need for a horse. And uh (throat clear) Judy had a horse (throat clear) and so uh, (throat clear) we kinda got this funny little building put together and shaped up and you know, hung paintings around, mostly on bales of hay and all that sort of thing. And we cranked up some publicity, this was another specialty that Jack was, turned out to be quite good about, cranking up the publicity (RH: mmm hmm) and uh, (throat clear) and so we were off and running and of course in our senior year uh, this would have been the school year of 1953-54. The Tacroom Gallery uh, well everybody decided that one difficulty is that it was actually outside the city limits of Salem in a kind of an obscure location and there was no real place to park a car and things like that you know. It had certain inadequacies as say a galley, and so we found a space uh, in (throat clear) near the capitol mall uh, in the Sears roebuck building, uh, (throat clear) and we somehow or another and and here again I think Jack Eyerly a significant in getting it all arranged somehow or another we would be able to take this space and for one month, have it as a say 'The Tacroom Gallery'. And uh, (throat clear) and so we did. And uh, (throat clear) got lots of uh, publicity on the whole thing and uh, pe, and uh, you know the Statesman Journal, whether it was both the Statesman and the journal back in those days, uh, came around and photographed us and interviewed everybody and so on and so forth. And uh, and uh, (throat clear) so we were on the the Salem art map, whatever the hell that was worth, and (throat clear)'. RH: So the Sears uh, building, the Sears Roebuck was, just on the east edge of the Capitol Mall? JS: Uhhhhh, yeah it was on the (RH: I think I remember that) East Capitol Highway which back in those days was highway 99, uh, (throat clear) the road to Portland in other words (RH: Yup) uh, also it became Portland Road after a while, but um, (throat clear) the sear'the new capitol shopping center had a Sears building in it and at one, the North end of the, of thee Sears building was some small sort of retail or office spaces uh, and and one of those spaces is simply empty and and therefore uh, (throat clear) it was available as uh, or something. Jack found that out somewhere [____] {16:30} and um, (throat clear) so, so there we were and and we felt like we were just on top of the world. (JS laughs) RH: So you were, you Jim were showing paintings and drawings and that (JS: Yeah we) show? JS: Well everything is for sale, but of course hardly anything actually did sell, but there, I believe there were just a few sales, enough sales, everybody felt pretty good about the situation. RH: And what were you showing? Paintings? JS: I was primarily (pause) making, I was making some prints, but I was also making uh, drawings and paintings. (RH: And') At about the same time I remember I made a small linoleum block print which uh, and I think it was Diane uh, who encouraged me to enter it in the Artists of Oregon Annual at the Portland Art Museum (RH: Uh) and uh, and what do you know, it got in. (RH: Oh!) And so (RH: Good!) uh, in I think the fall of 1953 uh, I, I you know, had a work in the Artists of Oregon Annual (deep breath) (RH: Good for you.) And uh, (throat clear) that was uh, quite an accomplishment and uh, then the other thing that happened is that uh, back in those days there was a scholastic uh, accomplishment program of some sort uh, and I, I really don't remember uh, quite where [____] {18:03} to, and I don't think it's something that exists anymore, but uh, they (throat clear) would sponsor a show and uh, won I think it was the J.K. Gill operation in Portland. Uh, but it may have been the [___] {18:20} Frank building um, you know one or the other uh. And they would have an annual show of, of, of all the local high school kids by local, it wasn't just Portland. It was uh, you know, clear down to well, you know, Eugene, Corvallis, Salem, that sort of thing. And uh, (throat clear) and for the graduating seniors who were presumably in good standing as far as high school was concerned why, uh, that rendered them eligible to turn a portfolio of work, not just merely one or two examples. And uh, (throat clear) and there would be a, an assortment of uh, well I don't know, talent scouts I suppose or something like that, who (throat clear) would take a look at this stuff and, and uh, possibly award a scholarship or two. And uh, (throat clear) we did quite well for ourselves. And in our senior year, Jack Eyerly got a scholarship to uh Colorado Springs Fine Arts Center. There was a young lady uh, Pat Ramsire, who got a scholarship, uh to somewhere, I don't remember. Uh, there were 2-3 other scholarships uh, that were awarded and I got two scholarships, so I uh, (throat clear) won to Columbia which uh, (RH: Wow) (throat clear) and the other one was to the University of Oregon. Uh, and so I selected the University of Oregon, partly because, number one I didn't know anything about Columbia other than the fact that it was on the opposite side of the country. And number two, the University of Oregon scholarship was worth twice as much (JS laughs) (RH: Ohh) So uh, (throat clear) that (throat clear) narrowed it down pretty effectively (RH: mm hmm) and uh, (throat clear) so I discovered was off to the University of Oregon. Uh I hadn't really uh, made very serious plans what the heck I was gonna do when I got out of high school uh, other than it kind of a vague idea, probably go to college. And my folks, primarily my father, sought to it that I had a good summer job and uh, (throat clear) working on a highway crew (throat clear) uh, he was with the the Oregon department highways, and so he sort of had connection. Anyway, I found myself uh, shoveling a lot of asphalt and stuff like that, building up my muscles. (throat clear) At any rate, earning money to go to college was, when the scholarship uh, suddenly became a reality why this kind of put a different picture on things, and uh, I had as a matter of fact uh, given a certain amount of thought to simply uh, showing up at Willamette University uh, as a student uh, you know close by and, what the heck, uh, (throat clear) I had no particular reasons uh, that I could think of as to why to go to any college anywhere. But, uh, so the local was college a relatively obvious choice, so the University of Oregon option floated up, and uh, well that's just great. (RH: mm hmm) It's certainly not that darn far away and, so I remembered driving down to uh, Eugene in March of 1954, to meet with my uh, (throat clear) faculty advisor, Andy Vincent (RH: Oh, good.) and he talked my leg off, which it turned out is a basic habit that he has and, (throat clear) and uh, and you know I was in. (JS laughs) (RH chuckle) And Jack went off to, uh Jack Eyerly went off to uh, Colorado Springs and you know the rest of us went in different directions (RH: mm hmm) and uh, and uh, (throat clear) kind of a big change for, you know quite frankly uh, I had a rather difficult time. I was not much of a scholar, I didn't really care for high school but, the only thing that kept me going was simply the art department and the friends that I had made and the faculty uh, at the school. Uh, (throat clear) I you know, I did not relate to the, any of the sports endeavors and that sort of thing. And uh, (throat clear) so (throat clear) when I got to college, why it was a brand new world and a radically different experience, and one that I found the far more enjoyable and, and rewarding. (throat clear) And I was basically very enthusiastic about it, and uh, (throat clear) much to discuss with my mother who seemed to think I needed to come home about every weekend. And uh, (throat clear) and I didn't feel any need to come home every weekend at all. (JS laughs) (RH: mm hmm) So' RH: Where was your family in Salem? JS: We uh, (throat clear) were living outside of Salem on Market Street, uh, quite close to the present day Swegle School. (RH: mm hmm) And (throat clear), as a matter of fact, when the folks bought that place in 1948, I think the city limits were about 3 miles away, and uh, (throat clear) and of course by the time uh, oh I don't know, certainly by sometime in the 1960s, uh they were inside the city limits. (RH: mm hmm) And so, so'. RH: Who was in the uh, art department at Salem High School besides uh, Diane Sterns? JS: Uh, that was it. (throat clear) There was no one else. RH: And Robert Voit, who had studied art at Willamette with Constance Fowler (JS: Yes) was what, the dean? (JS: uhhh) the principle? JS: No, he taught at Perish. (RH: Oh, he was at Perish) Yeah, he was at Perish Junior High. (RH: mm hmm) And I really kind of lost track of uh, Bob. I would just kind of occasionally bump into him in sporadic intervals over the next 10 years or so. And as far as I know, he simply ended his career as a teacher, once he finally reached retirement. And he, you know, painted all the time, or quite a bit of the time at any rate. And um, uh, made his, a kind of a, at least a small mark on the Salem (RH: yeah) scene and that sort of thing. (RH: mm hmm) But, um, I would say that uh, while at Willamette University back in those days it was Carl Hall and um, Dr. Cameron St. Jos Pollin. (RH: Right) I think that. And uh, (throat clear) Pollin was a uh, a rather interesting fellow in many ways, but he was not in the least bit approachable compared to say, Carl Hall. (RH: Right) You know, I could always easily have a conversation with Carl, but uh, Pollin was a bit remote. And uh, (throat clear)'. RH: So uh, you took this uh, class with Carl at the Y uh, (JS: Yeah) did you take other classes with him? Or'' JS: No, that was pretty much it, however uh, in high school, Diane encouraged Jack to uh, to try to take some class uh, because by then Carl was on the staff at Willamette. And uh, somehow or another uh, I don't know if it was because of what Diane did, or, or it was Jack's own effort, but he one way or another succeeded in getting uh, permission or, or whatever it was from Willamette University back in those days, to uh, I suppose do an audit. (RH: mm hmm) And uh, so about 3 days a week, he would come over to the Willamette campus uh, for this class and I would occasionally myself uh, just kind of tag along (RH: Uh huh) (throat clear) and um'. RH: This was a class with Carl. JS: Yeah, this was a class with Carl. And I remember being uh, present in that class myself, but it was it was really Jack's effort. (RH: mm hmm) And uh, (throat clear) and it was important to Jack because uh, Carl uh, was quite a good teacher and um, (inhales) uh, Jack himself uh, just like pretty much the rest of us had uh, (pause) perhaps rather [____] {27:35} ideas about being an artist someday and all that sort of thing. And (throat clear) and uh, so I'm not entirely sure, but I also think that it was during that time that Jack was beginning to form his own ideas as to becoming a uh, an active element in, in the, well the Oregon Art Scene (RH: mm hmm) and uh, he worked pretty hard to get to know uh, other artists. I have a vague recollection that we made a trip down to Oregon State to uh, look up some of the characters there. This would include uh, back in those days uh, people like Wayne Tasum and uh, (throat clear) Nelson Sangrin, Paul Gun, Gordon Gilke (RH: mm hmm) uh, [Restrogen?] {28:34} and there were a couple other, but uh, (throat clear) I'm, I'm pretty sure that the first time that I met Carl, I mean Nelson Sangrin, was uh, during one of these funny little trips. (RH: Yeah) And uh, (throat clear) that we made. And uh, and then Diane uh, and then in our senior year, why Darl kind of took this over, would organize uh, a, a tour, say at the Portland Art Museum uh, during [_______] {29:08} or uh, perhaps an opening at some gallery. And (inhale)'. RH: So Darl Herman uh, is that a man or a woman? Was Darl a woman? (JS: Yeah) or a man? (JS: Yeah) And she took over (JS: Yeah, yeah, she) at high school. JS: And quite frankly, at that time uh, we thought that Diane was a, a better teacher. Uh, we didn't like Darl nearly as well but actually, she did a pretty good job for us. And uh, and she was basically sympathetic (RH: mm hmm) to what we were trying to do, and she recognized that there were some glimmers of talent here and there (tapping or typing or stacking papers in background) and all that sort of thing. And uh, and she was quite happy to sponsor uh, some of our strange endeavors like, for instance, Dick Richardson, wanted to uh, (throat clear) put out a humor magazine. (Inhale) One of his great ambitions I guess uh, and so he did. (throat clear) And uh, and uh, we had kind of an art club uh, in high school called 'The Palleteers' (RH: Oh) (throat clear) and Jack Eyerly was president and all, and, and, we were all just kind of by default, members (RH: Uh huh) and (throat clear) and uh, (throat clear), kind of an interesting thing uh, when Dick Richardson himself uh, started college, he went to Oregon State, uh, one of his first acts was to put together uh, a humor magazine which he called 'The Beaver Dam'. (RH chuckle) And (throat clear), the darn thing ran uh, on and on for about 3 or 4 years before it finally pooped out. And uh, (throat clear) and uh, but that's kind of a tangent which we don't need to explore. (Chair or table creaking) But uh, (throat clear) unfortunately Dick uh, turned out to be a unique character in more ways than one, and it's probably a darn good thing that he never got married, I don't see how anyone could possibly, who stood the guy. (RH chuckle) But he, had a rather odd sense of humor, and he had a very good facility to draw the doggone cartoons, and (RH: mm hmm) we looked upon Dick as being one of the, you know, one of the most talented of the bunch of us. (RH: mm hmm) And um, another kind of a funny thing we, Jack Schrader was a very close friend of Jack Eyerly's, and I got to be a pretty good friend of Jack myself, Schrader. And we uh, thought that Jack Schrader was, was thee most capable artist of, of, of all of us. And uh, and we were quite disappointed when he didn't go directly from high school into college, he went into the navy. (throat clear) And he didn't just go into the navy, he signed up for a full 4 years, which we thought was kind of bizarre, and back in those days. And uh, (throat clear) but he ultimately uh, (throat clear) worked hard at, as an art major at the, starting at Oregon State and then he transferred to the University of Oregon, but, and he's been, you know, following along in that general direction ever since (RH: mm hmm) and, (inhale) but um, (throat clear) and then there was Jack, uh, I remember Jack certainly painted a lot and uh (thud) it's kind of a curious thing uh, I still have uh, quite a bit of that doggone portfolio that I put together uh, for this scholarship uh, plan that the scholastic people had, and in looking back at some of this stuff, I can, I can really see where uh, I would basically just doing some small scale Carl Hall (RH: mm hmm) kinds of drawings and what not and uh, (throat clear) it was kind of embarrassing but, (inhale) uh, as a kind of uh, recent uh, development in my own personal life, I discovered that Carl had a rather strong relationship with an instructor when he was um, back in Michigan, and uh, (throat clear) Carlos Lopez. And uh, I finally uh, saw some actual works of Carlos Lopez and it was quite astonishing to me that they looked just like Carl Hall's work (Both JS and RH laugh) (RH: Yeah) And uh, I showed them to Jack and, and he had never seen any of Carlos Lopez's work either, and he, he was just astounded. This happened about 5 or 6 years ago. (RH: Uh huh) And uh, he had never known that, (throat clear) there was such a close relationship between what Lopez was doing, and what Carl (RH: Uh huh) had developed. And uh, But (JS and RH: Carl) went a different direction. RH: Carl used to say that uh, Carlos Lopez um, drove him crazy because he painted uh, messily. You know. (JS: Yeah) Very freely and whereas Carl was quite precise in his painting. (JS: Yeah) But um, it's interesting that there were such, in some ways, such close similarities. (Pause to a new Question) So it sounds like uh, Jack Eyerly was kind of a catalytic force (JS: Yeah) um, among (JS: Oh yeah) your group, and (JS: Yeah) the high school Salem days and um, (JS: Oh, he was.) and he went on to be that really (JS: Yeah) for much of his life. Um, (JS: And um,) in Oregon and in Washington too I guess. JS: I remember uh, one evening during uh, we were having a meeting with uh, you know, 4 or 5 of us together. Judy Wolf, uh, and I think Diane was there, and uh, Jack, and me, and probably Schrader, and'[at any rate?] {35:22}, somebody came up, and it was, it was dark outside, and somebody came up on a motorcycle. And, (throat clear) and Judy says 'Oh, here's Dave Foster!' (JS chuckles) (RH: Oh! *followed by chucking) It turned out that Dave Foster uh, (throat clear) was a friend of the Wolf family, and uh, so yeah, it, it was definitely Dave Foster, so that was my, the first time I met Dave and uh, (throat clear) that became a rather strong friendship of mine in, by about 1957 uh, well maybe '56 uh. For a variety of reason uh, and I believe it was the summer of '57, I didn't return home to, to my folk's place, to once again work on the highway crews or anything of the sort. I, I managed to get a job as a sort of a handyman around the, the construction of the new art department, School of Architecture and Allied Arts at the University of Oregon. They just simply needed somebody uh, to, you know, chase around and, the character who hired me was Dean Sydney W. Little. (RH: Oh) And uh, (throat clear) and, everyday he would have a list of funny little projects for me to do, and it was really great because I, I had some inexpensive housing to live in, I think it was, I paid $25 a month rent or something like that you know. And I had the full use of the art studios uh, (throat clear) nobody, there was just room all over the place, you know, and so I kind of set up a small empire of my own. And uh, (throat clear) and every day [___] {37:20}, I would work around, the construction site and uh, (inhale) doing whatever uh, Sydney W. Little had on his great list for the day, and uh, one of the really nice features about it is that, uh, (throat clear) Dave Foster had started working on his uh, Master's Degree and he was putting together his, his handcrafted and hand carved films uh, (throat clear) in a converted broom closet in the old art building. (throat clear) And so he and I spent a lot of time uh, fooling around with uh, you know, what he was trying to do that way. (RH: mm hmm) He was, he was inventing the soundtrack, which was, a long piece of paper that would go through a player piano, (RH: Oh) and uh, (throat clear) and then he was staying with his uh, sister uh, somewhere in town, and uh, about every week or so, I would ride my bicycle to his sister's place, and Dave and I would sit around and drink beer, and discuss art, and all the other important things. (throat clear) And um, and uh, (throat clear) you know, that was quite a summer. RH: So this is in Eugene? JS: Yeah, in Eugene. And'. RH: Dave Foster had been a student of Constance Fowler's at Willamette, and they, they remained in touch all the rest of (JS: Yeah) their lives. And uh, she described Dave Foster as some sort of genius. (JS: Yes, he *chuckles* that describes it pretty thoroughly) and he went on to be on the faculty At U of O. (JS: Yeah, he did.) Yeah. (JS *inhale) Yup. (JS *throat clear) So did you study with him, or was that later [_________] {39:11}' (JS: I studied more with him, uh, we actually, I, I remember uh, a class that we took together, and it was Jack Wilkinson's uh, composition and visual theory. And, I remember specifically at one time that, and the class started at something like 9 o'clock in the morning. Uh, (throat clear) Dave Foster and I showed up at 9 o'clock, and so did Jack Wilkinson, and Jack started in, talking, with his unlit cigar in his mouth and all that sort of thing. And uh, and as he talked, why people, who were signed up to take the class, would kind of drift in and sit down and, some of them would take notes and some wouldn't. And then about 10:30 going on 11, (throat clear) they would start to drift out. (throat clear) And then, finally about 11:30, quarter to 12, why uh, Jack Wilkinson realized it was apparently getting close to lunch time. Uh, (throat clear) or maybe he was ready for a fresh cigar. And so, you know, he would stop talking. (RH: mm hmm) And, (throat clear) that's how he taught his composition and visual theory so' (JS laughs) (throat clear) RH: That was a legendary course, wasn't it? (JS: Yeah, yeah) One of the first of that type in the country or' JS: I, I've heard that. (RH: Yeah) It's probably true, yes. (JS chuckles) RH: And what was it, that was uh, a sort of a design (JS: Yeah) theory? JS: Uh, it was mostly a, a uh, a Jack Wilkinson class on uh, lengthy ideas as to, you know, what on Earth visual phenomena was, and how it related everything in the universe and, (RH: mmmm) and so on and so forth. And uh, (throat clear) many people found Jack Wilkinson to be uh, quite inspiring. (RH: I've heard, people say that.) And uh, and there were others who didn't find quite so inspiring and, and uh, (throat clear) he was quite a contrast to say, Dave McCosh, who uh, was not known for lengthy speeches about anything. And he generally was, was rather brief, but he also was the most active painter. Uh, and everybody knew that. Uh, everybody was quite familiar with what Jack Wilkinson had, I mean what uh, uh, Dave McCosh had done. (RH: mm hmm) Uh, but nobody had ever seen anything like Jack Wilkinson had done (RH: mm hmm) with the one exception, uh, during the, (throat clear) the school year of '57 on into '58, uh, Jack had been commissioned by the School of Architecture and Allied Arts to paint a mural on the, on the building, outdoors. And uh, (throat clear) and so he got about 15 or 20 of his students involved, and, and they all painted on this darn thing, but of course, it was all dreamed up by Jack. (throat clear) And it was based upon uh, uh, notions of proportion that had been worked out by [Lay Carbusea] {42:35}and (RH: Uh huh) and, but Mr. Fuller, and for all I know, Albert Einstein, but at any rate, its uh, (throat clear) um, I remember it being a kind of uh, a big effort at a lot of people thought uh, it was one of the finest things uh, going on at that time, and you know, and others were not so sure about that. (JS chuckles) RH: Is that mural still'(JS: I'.) there? JS: The last time I was on the University of Oregon campus uh, which was 6 or 8 years ago, I remember seeing it. I suspect it's still there. I suspect it's still a shrine to Jack Wilkinson (RH: mm hmm) and [___________]{43:23} (throat clear) RH: So if we, if I went down, where would I go to see it? JS: Well, the School of Architecture and Allied Arts, Lawrence Hall, (RH: mm hmm) uh, is the, the general location. Lawrence Hall had expanded since then, but uh, it, it won't be too hard to find. And uh, (throat clear) I painted a mural of my own uh, Andy Vincent had uh, a design class that, he normally didn't teach design, he basically just taught painting, but every now and then he would teach a design class uh, the faculty members kind of would trade things around a little bit and all that sort of thing. And, (throat clear) and so he said 'Well we're, we've had a program to paint a mural some place on the campus, by a student, and that's what this class is going to be about, where we're going to work up a mural idea.' And then, uh, you know find the location for it, and uh, (throat clear) so it turned out, I was in the class, and um, and uh, this was in the spring of 1957, I'm pretty sure. And, so, somehow or another I, I was assigned the bowling alley, in uh, in the basement of the Erb Memorial Union, the student union. And so I borrowed Dave Foster's uh, tape recorder, (throat clear) and recorded all the racket that went on while people were in there bowling. I'm not quite sure why I did that, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. (throat clear) And, (throat clear) and then I worked off an assortment of drawings and designs for uh, I don't know, maybe about 80 90 lineal feet of wall, and some, in some places, it was only about 5 feet high, and other places it was more like about 12 feet high. And uh, and you know, Vincent uh, saw my efforts in, in, you know, he was aware that I, what I was up to and all that sort of thing. And over spring break, (throat clear) uh, a friend of mine photographed all the drawings I had made, and (throat clear) it was 35mm film, and then we uh, he just simply developed the film and, as negatives, and then we mounted the negative frames uh, and shot them on the wall with a Kodak carousel projector (RH: mm hmm) and traced them out (RH: Yeah) and then I painted the whole darn thing (RH: Uh huh) with uh, good old latex interior paint, that supplied by the physical plant, and uh, using rollers and (throat clear) big paint brushes and what not, and uh, (throat clear) and when (hesitates) spring vacation was over, why uh, I presented this mural to Andy Vincent as an accomplished [____] {46:33} (JS and RH chuckle) and he uh, said 'Well, you know, you weren't really supposed to do this until after it had been approved by somebody (JS laughing) (RH: Oh, as to take action.) So, (throat clear) while I, my'. RH: So is that mural still there? JS: Uh, it, it lingered on for at least 20 years, and, and Bernie Freemesser, who was kind of the campus photographer (RH: Yeah, I remember, his work.) was supposed to have gotten around to taking photographs of it, and I don't know if he ever did or not, I've never, I've never looked into it, (RH: Oh) and I've always been curious uh, and finally the, they, they had a major redo of the Erb Memorial Hall sometime in the last 10 years, and there went the mural. RH: Oh, what was the mural of? Was it a scene? {47:25} 2 Matt audio 0 OHMS Object https://library.willamette.edu/archives/oralhistories/ohms-viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=WUSC-2013-58.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Description An account of the resource Roger Hull talks with Oregon artist Jim Shull about materials in the Jack Eyerly collection. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WUSC-2013-58 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-11-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Title A name given to the resource Jim Shull Interview http://library.willamette.edu/archives/omeka/files/original/0ce8f38c1eea930a16c24a5aa991d977.jpg 0a5d340198ee26023b3c1401b749acfd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eunice Parsons Papers Subject The topic of the resource Eunice Parsons Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKelvey Mandigo-Stoba Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Willamette University Archives and Special Collections, Eunice Parsons Papers Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 8.5" x 10.5" Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sketchbook 3, Image 8 Subject The topic of the resource This image is from Parsons' time abroad in Venice. It adopts a style that is a mix of her later genre scenes, such as the ship in port at the beginning of this sketchbook and her landscapes from the first sketchbook. This is likely a result of Parsons using her sketches as a form of a diary or as documenting the places that she visits. It is set apart from earlier sketches as the focus has shifted from depicting all elements with equal fidelity to selectively making the most impactful elements naturalistic while letting the other elements blend together. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eunice Parsons Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Eunice Parsons Papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-1965 http://library.willamette.edu/archives/omeka/files/original/7611af31ce6490788812647554cc85bf.jpg 90957e3bc174422654bae423fb2478fa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eunice Parsons Papers Subject The topic of the resource Eunice Parsons Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKelvey Mandigo-Stoba Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Willamette University Archives and Special Collections, Eunice Parsons Papers Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 8.5"x10.5" Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sketchbook 3, Image 9 Subject The topic of the resource It is difficult to discern if these characters were drawn from life, or if they are purely made up from Parsons' imagination. However, in either case, it seems that Parsons has taken the liberty of altering the figures to fit a visual agenda of nonchalance. These characters, even if they were created from real models, are representations of characters that are unimpressed. The true focus of this sketch is the metarepresentation of the key visual codes required to represent emotion, which classifies them as simulacra. This distinction is important as Parsons' collages focus on the creation and manipulation of simulacra. By taking from previously created images and reconstructing them to have a different meaning, collage is necessarily an art form predicated upon the redefining of visual systems into new and vibrant systems in dialogue with personal style. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eunice Parsons Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Eunice Parsons Papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-1965 http://library.willamette.edu/archives/omeka/files/original/ced5907552e7ec74f96a8af2bba40d5d.jpg fe0015e89ce06e2a3931387001f48d1b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Eunice Parsons Papers Subject The topic of the resource Eunice Parsons Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McKelvey Mandigo-Stoba Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Willamette University Archives and Special Collections, Eunice Parsons Papers Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Physical Dimensions The actual physical size of the original image 8.5" x 10.5" Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sketchbook 3, Image 10 Subject The topic of the resource This sketch articulates a trend in the later images of this sketchbook where Parsons is moving away from naturalistic characters towards those that are more uniquely expressive. This can be seen as a product of the varying interactions between lines. She creates systems which are close enough to that of recognizable human features that the viewer is able to empathize with the figure while being abstracted enough to have an unsettling quality. In this way, Parsons is experimenting with the creation of simulacrum. She is representing not a figure from life but is creating a visual system that portrays the visual codes which signify sorrow or sadness. Through engaging in the metarepresentation where visual codes of emotion are recreated as their own images, Parsons is beginning to explore the ideologies that are seminal to collage. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eunice Parsons Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Eunice Parsons Papers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-1965